Fortune Bay NL

Devon Griffin wrote the following about Fortune Bay and the family of Elizabeth Saunders. He sent it as a comment on Newfoundland Mi’kmaq Family History. But with so much information that people are seeking, I asked if I could post it on its own. He kindly agreed and provided photos.

google map of Fortune bay
Fortune Bay: English Harbour East right of centre, Terrenceville far right. Click to enlarge

Martha Murphy Hynes

Martha Murphy’s parents were Walter Murphy & Bridget Ryan of Oderin and Little Harbour West, Placentia Bay. She had several siblings. (Martha married Joseph Hynes, son of Elizabeth Saunders and Thomas Hynes. After Martha’s death, Joseph married Mary Smith, daughter of John Smith and Elizabeth Vaters of Davis Island.)

Martha died on Feb 28 1884 in English Harbour East, and she’s buried in St. Bernard’s (The only RC cemetery on that side of Fortune Bay at the time) and her headstone still exists there.

Mary Bridget (Murphy) Barron, d/o John Murphy
Mary Bridget (Murphy) Barron, d/o John Murphy

I’m currently working on the Murphy family as it seems there was some Mi’kmaq blood in the family, but we are unsure how. They had some affiliation with native people in the Swift Current area in the early- to mid-1800s. If you look at Martha’s brother John Murphy’s daughters, they are very Mi’kmaq in appearance.

Smiths and Hacketts

Anastasia (Murphy) Smith, d/o John Murphy, with grandchild
Anastasia (Murphy) Smith, d/o John Murphy, with grandchild

Elizabeth (also known as Betsy) Smith Hackett’s parents were William Smith & Elizabeth Whittle. She married William Hackett. He died on May 17 1884 in English Harbour East according to Gertrude Crosbie’s transcription of NL Newspapers. Betsy’s sister Martha Smith married William Hackett’s brother, Thomas Hackett.

There also is some speculation about an early connection between the Hacketts and the Saunders. A Joseph Hackett was in Fortune Bay in 1818 according to the Keith Matthews collection at the Maritime History Archive. Dorothy, I’m not sure if you have seen it before but there was a Joseph Hackett in Labrador in the 1820s recorded as a half-Indian. Interesting the name shows up in both places.

Elizabeth Saunders Family

Also, more information on the Saunders. Elizabeth (Saunders) Hynes was indeed of Mi’kmaq origin. Her parents were John and Elizabeth Saunders, and were noted in court records for 1810/1811 as having saved a young servant girl Margaret Doyle from her master Michael Gorman. He was abusing her at Terrenceville (then known as Fortune Bay Bottom). They took her into their home and protected her from him.

Elizabeth Saunders and Thomas Hynes family D Stewart
Click to enlarge. Circled names are people in photos here.

DNA connection with Elizabeth Joe

We recently conducted a mtDNA test, which is your direct maternal line (your mother’s mother’s mother etc.), on John Saunders’ wife Elizabeth. We do not have a maiden name for her yet. The test came back and she shares a direct maternal line with Elizabeth (Joe) Blanchard of the Bay of Islands [wife of William Blanchard].

As many know, Elizabeth Joe was Mi’kmaq and has been speculated to be Thomas Joe’s daughter or some relation to him. It’s also believed Mary Park Brooks was Elizabeth (Joe) Blanchard’s sister and was Mi’kmaq. We’re working on getting an mtDNA test for a descendant of hers to prove that.

The mtDNA test showed that Elizabeth Saunders and Elizabeth (Joe) Blanchard share a direct maternal line with a genetic distance of 0. That means it’s very recent (within the last 200-250 years), so the most likely scenarios are that they were sisters, aunt and niece or first cousins on the maternal side.

It’s pretty interesting to be able to connect two women who were known to be Mi’kmaq. If Mary Park Brooks mtDNA test comes back as sharing a direct maternal line also, it provides a little proof to their connection as I believe in the 1838/1839 list of inhabitants it says she was from Burin originally and is also where Elizabeth Saunders frequented.

John and Elizabeth Saunders, Terrenceville

Albert Saunders s/o George Saunders and Ann Baker
Albert Saunders s/o George Saunders and Ann Baker (click to enlarge)

John & Elizabeth Saunders had the following children: Elizabeth Saunders (m. Thomas Hynes), Richard (Dickie) Saunders (m. Joanna Clarke), Catherine Saunders (m. James Picco), Ann Saunders (m. Esau Rhymes), George Saunders (m. (1) Ann Unknown (2) Ann Baker), Jane Saunders (m. Timothy McCarthy), & Joseph Saunders (m. Mary Jane Myles). There could possibly be more, but that’s what has been confirmed over the years.

The area of Terrenceville in Fortune Bay was highly frequented by the Mi’kmaq up until the mid-1870s (the story of why they stopped travelling there is a whole few paragraphs of its own). The Saunders and their descendants ended up staying there and settling.

Lavhey family, Terrenceville

Another prominent Mi’kmaq woman who stayed in Terrenceville was Elizabeth, married to Lewis Lavhey. Apparently she was a Bernard originally. Their descendants, especially through their daughter Grace (m. Samuel Coombs), live on in the area.

Picco family and ships

The Piccos were also a very frequent Mi’kmaq family in the area and as you can see one of them (James Picco) married Catherine Saunders. They have been in the area of Fortune Bay for hundreds of years. Apparently the matriarch of that family died in 1844 (according to a family history story published in the 1960s) over a hundred years old and was a great great great grandmother. By that point, she lived in St. Joseph’s, Placentia Bay (then known as Gallow’s Harbour).

Mary Jane (Picco) Hanrahan, daughter-in-law and granddaughter
Mary Jane (Picco) Hanrahan, daughter-in-law and granddaughter

I have heard rumours and old family history that the Mi’kmaq Picco (often spelled Peaco or Pico) originally came from Nova Scotia. Dr. Leslie Harris, former president of MUN, stated in his book ‘Growing up with Verse’ that James Picco & Catherine Saunders’ son John Picco had Mi’kmaq blood, and that it was often talked about. The Piccos are a large family, but there haven’t been a lot of records concerning them. Seems James & Catherine lived in Fortune Bay at one point before moving to St. Joseph’s, and their son John was born there in 1841 according to his death record & Leslie Harris’ book.

James Hackett s/o Elizabeth Hynes and Michael Hackett
James Hackett, s/o Elizabeth Hynes and Michael Hackett, lost on the Donald Silver Jan. 1924

There are lots of ships registered for the Piccos from Fortune Bay. Behind English Harbour East (home of Elizabeth Saunders Hynes) there is also a place called Piccos Woods. I have recorded a Phillip Picco, Joseph Picco etc. trading with Newman and Co. in the 1790s out of Little Bay & Harbour Breton. As it’s known, natives typically moved around a lot for different reasons. The Piccos were no different, going between Bay d’Espoir, Fortune Bay and Placentia Bay.

John Family

Louis John and family also frequented the Long Harbour, Fortune Bay and Terrenceville areas, Peter John (his son) was born in Belleoram around the 1810s and one of the John men was a telegraph operator in Terrenceville.

Lots of more information if anyone is interested. I could go on forever. Still lots to figure out but we’ve definitely made some progress over the past few years putting things together. Hopefully someday we’ll map out all the Mi’kmaq of Fortune and Placentia Bays. DNA is a welcome assistant to our research and we encourage everyone to get a DNA test to find your cousins!

See more of Devon’s writing at Fortune Bay mtDNA (June 1/18), an update on research on families discussed here, and Terrenceville Mi’kmaq (June 8/18), a story told long ago by Mrs. Esther Mary (Myles) Mitchell.

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78 thoughts on “Fortune Bay NL”

  1. Just a brief update…all of the commentaries under Pikeman are currently in process of being deleted in the coming day or so…if any researcher is interested in copying any of the commentaries such as Ethnohistory of Piper’s Hole….etc….as backup files for future reference or preservation for posterity before they disappear forever feel free to do so…I have nothing more to say…respectfully Pikeman

  2. If anyone reading these comments, there used to be person on here called “PipersHoleMan” that I was replying to. He has deleted his comments so I apologize if it looks like I’m talking to myself Lol

  3. Currently writing PART 2 of this article (if Dorothy is okay with posting :) )

    My mtDNA tests have returned on several ancestral Mi’kmaq women and there is some update to the DNA aspects as well as family history research.

  4. Just reading a part on here from “Devon”…he mentions my gggrandmother, Eliza Young. I have been looking for info for a long time and would like to email him or Dorothy…or someone email me. Is this possible?

    1. Dorothy, thanks for responding. My father stumbled upon this site as he (and I) were searching for what we could find about our Young/ Picco family. Been trying for years, 20+, to fill in this part of the family. We couldn’t…until now. Reading some info and seeing a pic of an ancestor, Mary Jane Hanrahan is amazing! I am overjoyed to say the least. We thought Eliza Young came from the west coast of NL originally, or perhaps Nova Scotia. Knew she was in St. Joseph’s as that is where my ggrandfather, Thomas Lake (who married Mary Ann Deer from
      Burnt Island) came from. Thomas’ parents were William Lake and Eliza Young…second marriage for both. Eliza’s first marriage was to Philip Picco. Now, in saying this, I want to confirm I have it right. I had some info but couldn’t put it all together and it was second hand…this site, what Devon wrote helped me piece it together. Where do I go from here? Do I finally have some correct information on my ancestors? What else is out there just waiting for me to discover? Thanks for your help and this site…what a treasure trove of info…for me anyway!

      1. Marilyn,
        Your fathers cousin Jim Lake in Rushoon is a wealth of information you should contact him. I’m sure he can help you fill in the blanks.

        You descend from Eliza’s second marriage to William Lake correct? She married a third time to a Cheeseman in her old age (and there’s a story about that haha!).

        Eliza was most definitely not from the West Coast, but from the Burnt Island area, I’ve seen the erroneous information that have her listed from the Great Northern Peninsula.

        Your father should do a DNA test if he is willing! I assume he is Thomas Lake’s grandson?

        -Devon

  5. PipersHoleMa
    I thank you for what you have undertaken, I want to continue digging because I feel a deep longing to know all I can, if I can help all descendants in my efforts so be it. As an artist, my intentions are to put as much as I can find out on film for those of the future so what we have discovered doesn’t die with us. I feel deprived by not being informed by my parents of my heritage and I have a lot to make up for. Good luck with your plans. Maybe our research paths will cross in the future.

  6. Hi Dorothy
    This is for Piper Hole researcher, my family originate in that area and I have spoke with him through Devon. I would be interested in his research and giving any help I can. I have been working to tie all my ancestry links together and at every turn a Mi’kmaq link pops up. I am very interested in retracing my roots and giving back to our ancestors by giving them voice. I have had my DNA done and it is uploaded to GEDMATCH. You can pass my info along to Piper Hole and I wish him great success

  7. On Facebook I got a comment you and others might be interested in: “Miles name goes back to James, first livyer in Terrenceville in 1700s whose sons, we believe, married Mi’kmaw women. There are a lot of Mary (?) among the women who were presumably Catholic. The area inside the barrisway is still called ‘Jim Miles Garden’.” He also mentions the “Smiths of Bay du Nord.”

    1. The area of water within Terrenceville just outside Jim Miles Garden was called Koskaecodde Lake (Mi’kmaq name). The opposite of Jim Miles Garden was a branch of land called the Meadow which was Joseph Saunders’s land (born 1833 Conne River) where the Mi’kmaq band used to encamp.

      I’m not sure about Jim Miles’s sons marrying Mi’kmaq women, however his grandchildren definitely did.. Into the Saunders & Lavhey families.

      Was it posted on your personal FB page?

  8. Does anyone else suspect Elizabeth Joe Blanchard & Mary Park Brooks (related through mtdna) to be Beothuk? Around their time, Beothuk children were kidnapped and brought into Mi’kmaq communities, and Beothuk women were being taken to England (such as Mary). Apparently Mary had an Indian name and was renamed Mary Park… similar to Shawnadithit being renamed Mary March? Maybe these women assimilated into the Newfoundland Mi’kmaq community for survival. Could explain the brick wall, and maybe why their mtdna matches so many from Finland (near Beringia) as well – Beothuk were closer related to the Innu than the Mi’kmaq according to some sources.

    Curious if anyone’s thought similar?

    1. New autosomal dna evidence is pointing towards a Hollett matriach being related to the Saunders, Park & Blanchard lines. Working on an mtDNA test for that line. PIPERSHOLEMAN has posted about a particular group of Holletts who inherited a two page lexicon of Beothuck words. New mtDNA evidence that has come to light now suggests a connection between Elizabeth wife of Lewis Lavhey (suspected to be Bernard) of Terrenceville, Fortune bay and was Mikmaq, and to that of Hannah Mariah wife of John Williams who is said to be Mikmaq descent. Lots of connections being made and no doubt when I get all of my dna eveidence back.. within the next month i will be submitting a part two of this article for Dorothy’s approval.

      1. Hannah Mariah wife of John Williams, would that be the same woman that lived in Woody Island, PB and then settled in Pools Cove FB and died there? If so that would be my husband’s GG Grandmother and we would appreciate any information on her that you would like to share. Email address is: lescarnu@yahoo.ca

  9. This is for Devon or Pipershole man !!
    My husband is the grandson of Alphonsus Barrington Sr and John Barrington is his great grandfather and would like to have his DNA testing done. How do I proceed on where to properly get a reliable DNA test. Could you please send me information for this. I would appreciate it very much. Thanks

    1. Hi Bernice,
      Best place to test first is Ancestry.ca , that way you get the most bang for your buck. Once he gets his results on there, you can upload for free to familytreedna.com and gedmatch.com

      Hope this helps. -Devon

  10. Hi Piperholeman
    After reading your comments, I am convinced that I am a descendent from the Moultons, Martins and Holletts you speak of. My grandmother (Moulton) was from Mortier and her mother was born in Burin, still waiting for my DNA results to come in. Thanks for all your information.

  11. I have been trying to trace my Mi’kmaq heritage, I found my great grandfather Thomas Issac Moulton and great grand mother Elizabeth Hawe , I found their children but cant find their marriage certificate. Any idea where they are from originally? She was Mi’kmaq but cant find anything pass 1881,

    1. Hi Joan, any dates for Thomas and Elizabeth? Names of their children? I haven’t got anyone matching your Thomas and Elizabeth or Susan and John Clark, but maybe with more information I could find a match or readers could. Thanks.

    2. Hi Dorothy
      Thomas and Eliza showed up when I googled Moulton in relation to an article by Devon which is on your website but I cant see it in the article. They had 4 children in 1881,1885,1887,1890 , Eliza’s parents were suppose to be from Woody Island. Thomas was born in 1854 but I haven’t found Eliza’s birth date. Her name is often spelled Hawe or Haus, they lived in Burin, Lewin’s Cove (often spelled Loon’s Cove).
      thanks Joan

    3. Hi Joan,

      I have heard a few times before that Elizabeth (Hawe) Moulton was Mi’kmaq Indian. Born in 1860 and came from the Woody Island area of Placentia Bay. Her parents were Elias Hawe(s) and Ruth –? Elias I believe died in 1894. Not sure which one the Mi’kmaq is from.. I suspect Ruth. They eventually seem to have moved to the Burin area by the 1860s.

      At that time living on Woody Island according to parish records were John & Ann Williams. Ann was also Mi’kmaq – with no last name. They had their son Henry baptized the same time as Elias & Ruth’s son Abel in 1838.

      Elizabeth please email back to me if you have any other info. A DNA test would be perfect for this family.

      -Devon

  12. Hi once again PipersHoleMan,
    Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I too agree it is time now to recognize the early Mi’kmaq families that lived in the area, and get the same recognition other communities and areas have gotten.

    That lady whom you met in Manuels, CBS is actually my Aunt Ellen. She’s a gg granddaughter of Elizabeth (Saunders) Hynes. She’s very knowledgeable about some of the early history of my family. Shd does look very native in appearance. That film that you mentioned was called “Finding Mary March” and was completed a few decades ago and she played one of Mary’s relatives.

    I have not seen a connection between the Barrington’s and the Branton’s, but would be interesting to dive into further. Berntim looks however to be a direct reference to Barrington. It could also be said that the old Bernard surname (Piktueruel) could have been passed down as Pico (Peaco/Picco) as well as your Pike/Pecks.

    Took a look at your DNA matches from FTDNA, I know quite a few of them. I don’t believe most of them are Mi’kmaq connections to you. Ms. Darrigan has strong connections to Conception Bay through her Sheppard line, so that is her probable connection to you. The rest, Park, Brake, Jesso, Hawkins, Perrier all descend from families out of Conception Bay whom immigrated to the West Coast. All of them are also connected to my Mi’kmaq ancestor Elizabeth Saunders who is a maternal relative of their Elizabeth (Joe) Blanchard. The Wheelers, Parks etc. are also connected but has not been fully determined the extent of their connection, but they all came from the Burin Peninsula as shown in the 1838/1839 list of inhabitants of the Bay of Islands.

    From reading your comments, I realized whom I was talking to you. I have been trying to contact you for years regarding your research on the Piper’s Hole area. Everyone knows you online as Pikeman, especially due to your comments on Ancestry & NGB. Glad to finally be able to contact you.

    I recently came across a Court Record from 1811 in Fortune Bay which states the following (Still some words to be transcribed correctly):
    “PAGE 95:
    June 6th 1811:
    Reached Harbor Mille, an old woman there in bad health, deteriorating state.
    June 7th 1811:
    Reached Bottom of Bay. Choice situation indeed fit for every occupation or business of island. Either fishing, building, rearing cattle. Cultivation is inhabited by 6 or 7 planters, family’s of young children. The grand object of contention is a slope of land formed by waves about ½ mile long or 3/4 and about 60 or 70 yards broad. Several bonds? islands is within, out of the reach of waves. The slope formed in by former settlers.
    PAGE 96:
    Providing ?? supplies ?? for perhaps 100 heard of cattle if property by ?? and inland. The men in single hand skiffs fish at times within call from their houses. Trout in abundance of the size of small salmon at a harbor about two miles north side. Grand Le Pier ?? may be found any time in summer. Mikmaks visiting during intervals perhaps of several years for beaver? in summer and venison in winter when droves from ?? the hundreds came in from w?? ?? and across island.
    Upon a formal inquiry into the facts or occurrences and disturbances that have arisen some complaints of and decided upon on board of H.M. ships and Magistrate in Navy also myself at 2 or 3 different times. The intolerable? Malice and rooted revenge between the two parties, one Irish and the other English, there seems but one way putting an end to/ if after all ??/ vig? An order for all parties to pull down their ?? and lay the whole ship ?? for their cattle ?? in ??. The land in which they have built their houses is such level ground and affords plenty of room
    PAGE 97:
    to clear sufficient to provide grass or hay to feed on during winter.
    Each party is endeavoured for ?? by any ?? the number and the place very inviting to new beginners. A Young man Elijah? Pye made ap ?? for a spot asking him for the girl Margaret Doyle to be his wife this fall/. Reply if the girl is willing you may know this fall by inquiring further. Increase of number w?? also increase number of claims to grass cattle on the same spot. Some fatal ?? may? ensue inevitably ?? ?? a murder or two in the end. Two or three conflicts of late will prove the truth of remarks.
    June 9 1811 Sunday:
    Appearing Michael McGraw, Michael Gorman, a man and woman ??. 2 men, crew of ?? ??. ?? flew about and departure second most prudent – reached Cape Millier [Mille] near Bay de John following herring and on
    11th got to Belleoram gave notice of surrogate court to be held on Monday 17th following.
    June 13 1811:
    Went by land to St. Jacques, back same day.
    June 16 1811:
    Performed? Service? on this harbour read acts of parliament ?? to swearing, drunkenness, proclamations inclosing? lands, harmony and friendship between Native Indians, Mikmaks and Nflanders europeans? – following ??”

    I’m working with a few other researchers to figure out exactly where the writer says the Mikmaks (Mi’kmaq) came in from as it’s very difficult to read. This provides more evidence of the Mi’kmaq presence in Fortune Bay especially. For reference “Bottom of Bay” is the old name for Terrenceville. I am also conducting extensive DNA testing for several Mi’kmaq descended families and am currently awaiting 7 DNA tests to come back in the next couple weeks with hopes for many more to be done. When the results come back, maybe we could use that information in conjunction with the above Court record to create a Part 2 of this article. Lots to find out yet!!

    1. Re. Mi’kmaq Grand LaPierre. Word beginning with “w” could be west and buddy is talking about droves of caribou coming in from the west.

    2. 1921 Grand Bay
      WELLS; John M Head Married 1885 Feb 35 Grand Bay
      WELLS; Sarah F Wife Married 1886 Sep 34 Fortune
      WELLS; Ernest M Son Single 1912 Aug 8 Grand Bay
      WELLS; Randel M Son Single 1914 Jan 6 Grand Bay
      WELLS; Lillian F Dau Single 1916 Jan 4 Grand Bay
      WELLS; John M Son Single 1919 Apr 1 Grand Bay
      PAULS?; Elizabeth M MIL Widow 1845 Jun 75 Fortune Bay

      1. Hi Phil, would be able to email me at devon.griffin(at)hotmail.com
        Replace the “(at)” with a @ symbol or maybe Dorothy could forward my email to you. :)

        I have been trying to contact you for many years as I have heard you a renowned researcher of Mi’kmaq families and would like to connect.

        Thanks in Advance
        Devon Griffin

  13. Pipers Hole Man ! A very interesting read as I have been searching my husbands family tree for past two years but has gotten nowhere near the wealth of information that i have discovered here on this blog. I did however come across the photograph of John Barrington and Big John Steven’s and sent the photograph to Alphonsus ‘s wife Laura whom I’m sure if Phonse had been alive at the time of this photograph would have tears of happiness for finally being able to put a face to John Barrington. My husbands name is Terence who’s grandfather was Alphonsus Barrington Sr and would love to know more regarding John Barrington and or other relations.

    1. Hi Bernice! My name is Yvette. John Barrington was my Great-Great Grandfather. a lot of you husbands relations live in Swift Current NL ( my hometown). My Great Grandfather and you Husbands Grandfather were brothers.

  14. REPLY PART 2:

    Thank you for the links on the archeology finds. I had read about these some time ago, and had used one of Penney’s reports for a Mi’kmaq proposal for Fortune Bay.

    I had seen that photograph of Fanny Bow(e) before a long while ago. I remember some debate over her ancestry. Definitely Native American, but what tribe was the question at the time. Labrador is an area that is very unfamiliar to me genealogically, as is Conception & Trinity Bays. Ethnic percentages is a tricky science, as really the companies are only comparing your DNA to known reference populations. I take them as an idea of your ethnic percent, but not as exact numbers. If you test at all of the Big 3 DNA companies (FTDNA, 23andMe & Ancestry) you will likely see some significant differences, and thankfully gedmatch has a great tool for showing different ethnic calculators for free. By the way, what is your mother’s gedmatch kit number? I would like to do a direct comparison to a few of my kits to see if they match at all.

    I enjoy having on file, the information about the Brazil/Basque family and could be of use in the future. Thomas JOE & Marie CABISH, suspected parents of Elizabeth (JOE) BLANCHARD mentioned in this article, had a son Thomas JOE Jr. baptized in King’s Cove in the early 1800s.

    I have a couple descendants of Elizabeth (BERNARD) LAVHEY on gedmatch, with the closest being a gg granddaughter. It would be interesting to see if they match any BERNARD descendants in other parts of Newfoundland.

    I think the biggest untapped resource for Fortune Bay, Burin Peninsula & Placentia Bay Mi’kmaq may be the St. Pierre RC records. I think within those records, there are clues to the early Mi’kmaq families of the area. I know some are online, but I know not all. With the first RC records dating only back to 1833 (as Placentia records prior to this weren’t recorded), I think if someone had the capacity to go through those records it would greatly benefit our research.

    1. Hi Devon, this is a final message on genetic genealogy related to the Bowe patrline-and I have absolutely nothing to say anymore on Piper’s Hole Ethnohistory (whether NL Mc, Mont or even Beo)…I had a chance to look at a saved back-up file (70 pp) for my mom’s 2016 FTDNA Family Finder atDNA test results…once again there were NO NL Mc matches from either the West Coast, BOI or South Coast…so we are NOT related my friend….furthermore, another relative from the same Brigus-Cupids Bowe patriline took a 2018 FTDNA FF atDNA test and the same results-zero matches to NL Mc…that’s why I pulled the Peck-Bowe discussion thread on the the Fortune Bay Mc discussion board, because both family lines have nothing to do w/ NL Mc ancestry…so the available atDNA evidence from direct-to-consumer commercial genetic testing companies categorically rules out any distant (5-6 Gens) NL Mc family history or genealogical connection…the atDNA evidence like the Bowe family history oral traditions of a Lab Indian (Innu) or Inuit origin with a lack of any NL Mc connection, Methodist parish registers, physical features of known descendants, and published ethnohistoric sources (Hickson’s Methodisst missionary report) all categorically point beyond a reasonable doubt to either Lab Mont or Inuit…so we are now at a point where we can scratch off a NL Mc connection for the Bowe patriline emanating from Brigus-Cupids, CBN, and by extension the PHR Peck one too…at present both my patriline (Peck/Pick) and matriline (Bowe) are NOT interested in pursuing any additional targeted array sequence (700,000-750,000 SNP) commercial genetic genealogy testing to prove or disprove any distant uniparental NA/Siberian or Circumpolar Inuit ancestry going back to ca. 1780-1800…we now know that the predicted BGEO percentages are somewhere in the lower-to-upper limit order of app. 1.5-3.0% NA/Siberian…with future advances in WGS (Whole Genome Sequencing) (10,000,000 SNP) testing accurate to detecting rare AIMs going back 8-9 Gens, and the expansion of Lab Inuit and Innuat (Mont-Nask) reference population databases through the Beo Institute-McMaster ADC (Ancient DNA Center) our family may reconsider the option of exploiting the opportunity of taking a WGS test in 7-10 years from now to determine the degree and reference source population of the alleged NA/Siberian or Inuit ancestors…but I am confident that beyond satisfying a mere intellectual or academic curiosity the test results will PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that the BOWE patrline was of Inuit origin, with a possible mixed paternal Innuat (Mont-Nask)-maternal Inuit connection, while the Peck atDNA results will point to distant mixed Fr-Mountaineer (Mont-Nask) ancestor going back to 1780-1800…so I don’t really know what it will prove actually….one can also categorically rule out any distant Beothuk ancestor for either kin group too, despite any circumstantial reconstructed evidence otherwise, because it was never there to begin with- because it was Mont-Nask and not Beo…so our family is at a point now where we don’t want to discuss the matter of ethnic origin anymore as it has no practical relevance in enriching or promoting our personal lives, familial and community interrelationships and credibility-reputation, beyond answering a research question that is already known and future WGS will only prove what we already know that the upper limit BGEO of app. 3.0% (or 3/32) is consistent with actual or real estimated BGEO percentage of NA/Siberian ancestry, Fanny Bowe was only 1/8 (10.0-12.5% NA/Siberian), and the source population is Inuit and/or Mont-Nask…as a collective group our families-both Peck and Bowe- are all in mutual consensus that we don’t want to be bothered anymore with any discussion on atDNA or aDNA testing…and we want our decision to be respected and honored by other researchers, geneticists, and family historians-genealogists…if and/or when WGS becomes available say 7-10 years from now we MIGHT reconsider this option but please note that this decision will have to be decided by all descendants from both groups, and strict confidentiality and privacy agreements will have to be drafted and honored by geneticists-genetic consultants, with a legal disclaimer of relinquishment or dissolution to the effect that in the event (emphasis on “in the event”) that any Beo mutation markers are found (which is highly improbable) that NONE of the test participants can avail of any legal recognition and/or economic advantages resulting from said putative recognition or opportunities resulting thereof of self-identifying as part-Beo (7-8 Gen descendants)…our family has chosen peace with this and we don’t want any more discussion on the matter-it is finally time to close this chapter on Bowe-Peck genetic genealogy testing and for all parties to move on to more positive constructive matters, so we can all put this behind us to move forward and start new lives…that is ALL that I have to say about the issue at hand…I hope that Dorothy Stewart posts this comment and I will NOT ask to have it deleted..sincerely and respectfully…. thank you for your consideration here…namaste.

      1. Again, PipersHoleMAn

        I never said we were related on Mi’kmaq lines. I said we could be related in different European ancestral ways.. Not sure why my comment to you last time made you delete a years worth of comments.

        1. For the simple fact that Peck-Bowe family history and genealogy, whether on the European or NA/Siberian side, has absolutely nothing to do w/ NL Mc families from Piper’s Hole, PB or Brigus-Cupids, CBN, trust me our family lines do not intersect going back 200+ years or more-our family lines on both sides are NOT related in any way, whether from WE or NA/Inuit and the atDNA evidence only proves that beyond a reasonable doubt and upcoming WGS testing will only confirm or add incontrovertible evidence to the emerging trend…I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever pulling all of the research…once again my family has no relevant place in the Mc presence in PHR…my Peck line was part-French and in prob if there ever was a NA ancestor going back 7-8 Gens, that NA ancestor was only mixed or part Innu (Mont)…I admire and respect your research but I can’t fail to notice that over and over again you omit the Montagnais (Mountaineer) connection for all families emanating from or with connections to PHR, PB…the Mont connection is well documented for the John, Bernard and Barrington (according to Paul Badger oral traditions)…as you know Mc is only a recent ethnopolitical cover term for Mc-Mont…perhaps you should be more mindful of this in your writing…why the overemphasis on Mc to the exclusion of Mont?…this omission of hard research facts is another reason that I can’t be a part of this research…why is this information being withheld, sugar coated or swept under the rug…no my friend trust me my research in this area is done…the ball is now in your court to finish the rest and work w/ your people the NL Mc…and I have absolutely nothing else to say on the matter…so I am unavailable for future comments or replies…take care and best wishes broh….

        2. Please honour and respect my personal wish to not to share any more information on the topic okay…whatever information that I have now is privileged and proprietary and is not open to the public domain…I told you I made a big mistake by getting involved in this research 20 years ago…I have nothing but regrets for which I have to live with the guilt and dishonour for the choices I made…I won’t apologize because the research was a gift to your people to help you reclaim your ancient Mc village…when I say that I am done with this research I mean it my friend and I’m not going back to it ever…so yes please and I implore you I don’t want to be bothered anymore on this okay bud…and neither I nor anyone in my family on both sides are interested in taking any more DNA testing period…maybe 7-10 years from now…we want to put this behind us and be left alone once and for all end of discussion…you are entitled to ask the question on revocation of openly disclosed research…but I also have the right to withdraw it and refuse to share anymore….I hope you appreciate and resoect this fact…like I said I have absolutely nothing more to say…just keep doing the outstanding research that you’re doing….I wish you and your people the best in all your endeavours.. namaste….

  15. REPLY PART 1 (MAY 28 2017):

    Hi Again PipersHoleMan,
    Once again thank you so much for the wealth of information. It’s quite amazing how much information you have amassed and no doubt this information will be valuable for years and years to come. Please continue to tell us more about what you have learned.

    I have studied the set of family history records for Placentia Bay. They are many, but I highly doubt they even put a dent into the amount of records that were lost. The residing priest at the time, gathered (very honourably) as many records as he could from those who were living in the areas and readily accessible for information, but it seems many many families were left out. Thankfully there are bits and pieces of some families in which we can pick from.

    I did record a Martin MURPHY & Sarah WITHERS located in the Placentia Bay records listed as having a son Thomas MURPHY (m. Martha HUNT) born 1844 in D’Argent Bay. I believe D’Argent Bay is one of the old names for an area around Piper’s Hole. That name doesn’t show very often. In addition, a Martin MURPHY shows up for Sound Island in 1843 having a son Peter (m. Mary RYAN). An examination of the Burin RC Records shows Martin MURPHY and Sarah WITHERS had a son Thomas baptized June 28 1846, on that same day a John MURPHY and Hannah Withers had a child baptized (no doubt related). Interesting of note… on June 27 1846 & June 29 1846 quite a number of known Bay D’Espoir/Indian related families had children baptized in the Burin church.. The following are:
    Jun 27 Baptized Mary of Michael Collier and Elizabeth Organ
    Jun 27 Baptized William of John Hayward and Susanna McDonald
    Jun 27 Baptized Frances of James Organ and Rachel Collier
    Jun 27 Baptized Frances of Edward McDonald and Mary Organ
    Jun 27 Baptized Thomas of William Foote and Jane Crant
    Jun 29 Baptized Margaret of Silas Hull and Susan Allen
    Jun 29 Baptized James of Dennis Long and Margaret Allen
    Jun 29 Baptized William of George Hiskott and Mary Allen
    Jun 29 Baptized David Hiskott a protestant 26 years old

    This signifies that the MURPHY’s were living around these families. I know from family history, the family of John MURPHY & Mary Bridget BROWN lived back and forth between Piper’s Hole & St. Joseph’s, their two daughters are pictured on this page and were known as Indian. If you scroll down the page you will see Jane Hayse (a descendant of theirs) stated that Anastasia would say she grew up in a tilt in Piper’s Hole. No doubt the Murphy’s had a close relationship with the natives in the area, and these records only solidify that. Based on Walter MURPHY & Bridget RYAN’s children’s baptisms, they seem to have spent much time in Little Harbour West (Close to St. Joseph’s). Probably moving back and forth.

    Martin MURPHY & Sarah WITHERS also had Anne baptized 1847.

    John MURPHY & Hannah WITHERS had Mary MURPHY baptized (Aug 15 1843); Note for Mary: following baptisms were around her baptism:
    Aug 9 Baptized Thomas of Thomas Crant and Martha Foote
    Aug 9 Baptized Anne of John Mcdonald and Rebecca Neil
    Aug 10 Baptized Judith of Peter John and Mary Brassil
    Aug 10 Baptized Gabreil of Matthew Brasil and Jinny Barth?
    Aug 13 Baptized Laurence of Laurence Murray? And Mary Chiasty???
    Aug 13 Baptized Marian of John Corbel and Diana Cox
    Aug 14 Baptized Mary of Daniel Bomboo??? And Susan Johns
    Aug 16 Baptized James of James Culliton Bridget Lundrigan (Note Cullitan is a name of Bar Haven).

    John MURPHY & Hannah WITHERS also had John (1848).

    It can also be noted that the names Foote & Crant/Grant show up in both Sandy Harbour, Placentia Bay and in Bay d’Espoir in the 1800s.

  16. Hello Dorothy : I am admin. of the Facebook Groups “Burgeo’s Past” and “Newfoundland Grand Banks” . We have been collecting information & pictures on the “Saunders”, “Rhymes” & “Picco” in the Group for the last 7 years. Esau Rhymes from Burgeo,NL. who married Ann Saunders , was married at Burgeo,NL. where they lived and raised their family. You can see all the information on the Family in “Burgeo’s Past” at this Link: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10152654013457695&type=3

    1. Hi John, thanks for letting me know about your Facebook groups. I’m sure other readers will want to check them out too. And, if you didn’t see it, here’s a link to a post about Howard Blackburn, Tommy Welsh and the Lushmans that I wrote. In it, there’s a link to the Dec. 1912 Nf Quarterly “A Tale of the Sea” about Blackburn and Welsh that I transcribed. I had read Earl Pilgrim’s “Drifting into Doom” and was very taken with the story! :)

  17. Very interesting. My maternal grandmother was Susannah Saunders from Harbour Mille in Fortune Bay. She married Jacob Scott from the nearby community of Little Harbour East where they resided and raised a large family.

    1. Hi Marjorie, thanks for adding some names and places to the Saunders story. Any thoughts on Catherine Banfield, asked about by Eva yesterday?

      1. I believe she was from Southern Harbour and was a Mansfield not a Banfield, but I haven’t thoroughly researched the family. There were Mansfields in Southern Harbour and area. His brother married a Dawe I believe from Brigus?

    2. Hi Marjorie,

      Your Susannah (Saunders) Scott was the daughter of James Saunders & Maria Brown, granddaughter of George Saunders and his first wife Ann.

      Do you happen to know anything about your grandfather Jacob Scott’s mother Lavinia (Pardy) Scott. I have a friend looking for information on her. Thanks!!

  18. Jane Saunders (m. Timothy McCarthy), are my great grandparents, my mother who was born on Woods Island in the Bay of Islands these were her father’s (John McCarthy) parents

      1. Missing a generation in between. John McCarthy’s parents were Daniel McCarthy & Elizabeth Jane Thornhill. Daniel’s parents were Jane Saunders & Tim McCarthy.. For a little bit of information on Daniel, he got into an altercation with John Rideout (the first Rideout in Terrenceville) in 1894 after Rideout was taunting Daniel while he was rowing out in his punt for being “dirty skinned”. A derogatory term for being of Native descent. This is according to the arresting officer at the time. It seems John was an often an instigator from the interviews with witnesses which included Daniel’s father Tim McCarthy, John Rideout’s wife Catherine (McCarthy) Rideout, John McCarthy (Mary Hynes, daughter of Elizabeth Saunders’s husband) and others.

        1. Not sure how to post this in the comments but trying to post a picture of Timothy McCarthy, son of Daniel McCarthy & Elizabeth Jane Thornhill.

        2. Hi Devon, email me the pic. I think I can attach it to your comment. If not, I’ll put it in the post. And thanks for the extra info.

  19. Reading with interest! I am the baby in the picture with Anastasia Smith Murphy. John Murphy and Mary Murphy Brown were my Gr.Grandparents. I was brought up by my grandmother . She told us she was “reared up” in a tilt in Pipers Hole….which is in Swift Current area, even though her home was St. Joseph’s P.B. Many of her siblings settled in Parkers Cove after she did including her mother.

    1. Hi Jane, it’s so nice to hear from the baby! Thank you so much for writing, and for telling us more about your grandmother.

    2. Loving this conversation. I have read Pike man’s info with interest as he was researching my gg grandfather Philip Brown from Sound Island and his son -my g grandfather Liberius. Just wanted to say that three of Liberius grandchildren did DNA tests – as well as g grandchildren if it is any help. Great info. You are all doing wonderful work.

  20. My Greatgrandmother was Catherine Mansfield or Banfield from Southen Harbour PB. She married Louis John of Conne River had 4 sons.. Also John Barrington was born in Conne River moved to Swift Current/Piper Hole. Louis died in 1904, n his 80’s. Catherine died in 1942 buried at Conne River. Cannot find any info on her. My other side of the family involves the Joe’s.

    1. Hi Eva, I’ve tried to find out about Catherine Mansfield/Banfield too, and no luck. There’s lots of Banfields in Bay L’Argent and Garnish, according to googling I just did. That seems possible for her, geographically. But I can’t find any connection. Maybe somebody reading this will be able to help us out. Hope so!

    2. I believe she was from Southern Harbour and was a Mansfield not a Banfield, but I haven’t thoroughly researched the family. There were Mansfields in Southern Harbour and area. His brother married a Dawe I believe from Brigus?

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